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| Hi does anyone have info about the practise of joining up with your horse/how to do it? i really want to try with my horse :)
*"If you aint first, you're last!" - Taladega nights *"There are times when you can trust a horse, times when you cant, and times when you have to" -anonymous *"Git 'er done!" - Larry the Cableguy *"What doesnt kill you, only makes you stonger" 
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In spite of what the people touting the technique will tell you, join-up isn't for most horses.
Who join-up IS for:
- unhandled (wild) horses
- horses who have suffered traumatic abuse and fear humans
- horses who are extremely spoiled
- horses who are aggressive (for whatever reason)
Who join-up is NOT for:
- horses who are generally well-behaved and tractable
- horses who have mild to moderate behavior issues
- horses who are stand-offish or stoic by nature
- just about any other horse not listed
It's been my experience that even correctly used, join-up and similar techniques are at best - unnecessary for the vast majority of horses. At the worst, I've actually seen quiet, easygoing horses made fearful, angry, and frustrated by well-meaning owners seeking a "deeper connection" with their horse. I'd pass unless your horse falls into the first four categories, and even if that's the case, you're better off hiring a well-respected local trainer to help you and your horse than resorting to join-up.
So in short, it sounds great in theory, but in reality it's not all it's cracked up to be.
"Quick fixes, by their nature, fix nothing; that's why they're repetitive."
-Dr. Laura
"It's better to ride even if you get thrown, then to wind up just wishing you had."
- Chris LeDoux
My Blog: http://equinesolutions.blogspot.com/
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Agrees 100000% with woodrow.
People don't understand that join-up is stressful for the horse at the best of times. When it's done right, in the right situation with a knowledgeable trainer... it's not gentle on the horse.
When someone who doesn't know what they're doing does it... at best you get lucky and simply end up with a tired and frustrated horse. At worst you completely fry them.
Society does not need more children; but it does need more loved children. Quite literally, we cannot afford unloved children - but we pay heavily for them every day. There should not be the slightest communal concern when a woman elects to destroy the life of her thousandth-of-an-ounce embryo. But all society should rise up in alarm when it hears that a baby that is not wanted is about to be born. ~Garrett Hardin
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How do you do join-up anyway?
My beautiful mare, Dakota. The best horse in the World!
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Dakota - I think that you miss the point that Misfit and I were trying to make. We think that the technique is overused, misunderstood, and generally not something the vast majority of horsepeople should attempt. So if you want details/instructions on how to do it, you may want to ask elsewhere or even run a google search.
"Quick fixes, by their nature, fix nothing; that's why they're repetitive."
-Dr. Laura
"It's better to ride even if you get thrown, then to wind up just wishing you had."
- Chris LeDoux
My Blog: http://equinesolutions.blogspot.com/
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/woodrowsmommy
For help on posting: http://board.horsechannel.com/Topic188135-4-1.aspx
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It's not that I completely disagree because you both made very good points. There are many horses that I wouldnt even think about doing this with, and others I would. It depends on the horse for me. My horse was pushy on the ground when I first got him, and note that I am quite short and he is 17.2 hands and 1400 lbs. Who do you think is going to win? I did join up with him and it really helped a lot. But if you arent experienced with the subject and do it improperly then I agree that it does way more harm than good.
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Woodrows Mommy (8/20/2009)
Dakota - I think that you miss the point that Misfit and I were trying to make. We think that the technique is overused, misunderstood, and generally not something the vast majority of horsepeople should attempt. So if you want details/instructions on how to do it, you may want to ask elsewhere or even run a google search. Yes, I know what you ment. But the op asked about how to do it.
My beautiful mare, Dakota. The best horse in the World!
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[quote]Woodrows Mommy (8/20/2009)
It's been my experience that even correctly used, join-up and similar techniques are at best - unnecessary for the vast majority of horses. At the worst, I've actually seen quiet, easygoing horses made fearful, angry, and frustrated by well-meaning owners seeking a "deeper connection" with their horse. I'd pass unless your horse falls into the first four categories, and even if that's the case, you're better off hiring a well-respected local trainer to help you and your horse than resorting to join-up.
So in short, it sounds great in theory, but in reality it's not all it's cracked up to be.[/quote]
I'm curious, Woodrow, in the cases where you've seen Join-Up ruin horses, was it done correctly? I could definately see how a Join-Up done wrong could ruin a horse, but don't really see how a correctly done Join up could be harmful. I have done a Join-Up with Merrill about half a dozen times and it has done nothing but good for our relationship.
I'm not trying to start a fight, just curious.
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But ask the animals, and they will teach you ~Job 12:7a
"You don't throw a whole life away, just 'cause it's beat up a little" ~ Tom Smith, Seabiscuit's trainer
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In a number of cases I witnessed, yes, it was done correctly. Once by an otherwise knowledgeable horsewoman, and another time by a Monty Robert's certified trainer, a pro who was trained in the technique by Roberts himself. In both cases, the trainers were invested in the technique - emotionally or by their "image"/reputation and though it was done correctly, they both damaged the horses. I've actually even watched footage Roberts himself working a horse and because he was absolutely determined that that his technique would work on the horse, even though the horse was clearly overwhelmed, frightened, frustrated, and even panicky he forced it to continue. At the end of the video, he acted like he'd accomplished something great, but all he did was cause the horse to be an exhausted, dripping, quivering mess. The person who had filmed it (this was years ago) and her farm was right next to his- she videoed it from her own pasture - said that many of the horses treated this way were angry and fearful and that his "assistants" and barn hands dragged horses around with chains over their noses because they were so nervous around humans as a result of being subjected almost daily to the join-up technique. In fact, in one of his books, Roberts admits to roundpenning a horse without rest for FIVE HOURS in an attempt to do join-up with it - he actually had to stop and rest himself and had an assistant continue working the horse while he went and had lunch.
I've also seen the technique executed poorly, of course, and seen that cause problems, but even done right but for the wrong horse or the wrong reasons, it can be harmful.
My real point is that it's unnecessary 99% of the time. I've worked with some very damaged and abused horses, some that were so bad that they were one more buck away from being dog food. One I'm working on right now was a chronic bolter, would chronically rear, and was just plain dangerous on the ground. She still has a long way to go, but she's now riding w/t on a loose rein and is a model citizen on the ground. I've never even had her set foot in a round pen, let alone used join-up. In fact, I can count the number of times I've used it on one hand with a finger or two left over, and when I did, it was seriously a last resort and the last step between that horse getting put down in each case. Two of them I was unsuccessful with - one had had his brain fried by drugs, too little turnout/riding, and being trapped in a stall for weeks at a time. The other had a brain tumor which caused horribly dangerous, unpredictable behavior (he had a bad habit of throwing himself in front of moving cars). After it was diagnosed as a brain tumor, we knew that it wasn't training/behavior and that was that.
So you all see how extreme I consider this measure to be.
"Quick fixes, by their nature, fix nothing; that's why they're repetitive."
-Dr. Laura
"It's better to ride even if you get thrown, then to wind up just wishing you had."
- Chris LeDoux
My Blog: http://equinesolutions.blogspot.com/
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/woodrowsmommy
For help on posting: http://board.horsechannel.com/Topic188135-4-1.aspx
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| OK, I've done join-up on numerous horses.....all of them problem horses with a past.....enough of a past that if they were human they'd qualify as having Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. And I've used it on unruly horses. However.....I think WM has made some extremely valid points. Someone who has a vested interest in "making" the horse join-up can, and often will, overdo it. Fear and frustration is NOT the name of the game....and I've never gone that far with any of mine. In fact, I have never gone over 1 hour.....if I've even made it to then.....because most of the time it only takes 30-45 minutes tops to get where you want to be. Or maybe it's because I'm ADHD myself and get bored pretty quick, heehee. Only a few (Canadian-bred) took more time.....and even then I broke it up over several days. I don't know......I just can't see it working with a horse who's scared, frustrated or exhausted. That's just NOT how it works. Join up HAS to be a mutual understanding....the horse has to CHOOSE to join up with the human. And he can't do that if he's tired, frustrated or fearful. And I've had some (again, Canadian-bred) that just did not want to join up. But you know what, when I quit the round-pen stuff, they did get "better" (as in more chummy and more willing).....maybe because I DID recognize that it just wasn't going to work with them. So, I'm a believer in Join-up.....it's another tool in my tool box. But reading WM's comments I can see how it can be misused. In fact I'm shocked at the 5 hour comment. If it happened, it happened, but I'm sure that was NOT the original intent. I came in on Join-up with it first came out, years ago, so perhaps I got the real deal; whereas now the original intent has gotten lost in the "need to succeed" training technique. And exhausting a horse is no different than the old "sacking out" method....where you keep at the horse until he just stands there.....wore out. As far as how to do it.....you're best bet is to go to the library and check out the Join-up video (if they don't have it, see if they are part of the national network....they will be able to find one, I'm sure). The ORIGINAL video explains it very well, and does everything very calmly and slowly. However, if you have a particularly difficult horse (one who kicks and/or rears or comes at you) you may need to send him to a trainer. It does take a special kind of person to deal with PTSD cases.
My blog: www.horselistening.blogspot.com It didn't take 1 day to create.....it won't take 1 day to fix.
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