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I blankted my horse the last two years because he doesnt grow much of a coat. I was almost about to body clip him but I didn't. This year I am not blanketing unless it gets really cold and I relized that it just doesnt get that cold in so cal and I will not be around during the last half to do it at night. I wish I had body cliped my old mare because she had the very thick morgan coat and she was soaked every time I rode. It really depends on what you are doing with the horse.
"It is the difficult horses that have the most to give you" - Lendon Gray.
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My mistake. I'm sorry I don't appear open minded but I really am! Sometimes when I find new logic or information on the web or wherever I'm very quick to preach people on it. I know I've been kinda rude but Joe Camp and some others made me want to make a difference in the horse industry- I'm just not experienced enough to do that. Horseless your last post really hurt my feelings, for your information I saved up for 6 months to get the Parelli On Line kit and I really didn't appreciate you saying otherwise. My point is that I want to learn more stuff- but these forums are a little one sided: Everyone hate PP and any other clinician. I want to learn! Please tell me how to learn and how to decipher truth from fiction and how to know when something may not work in a certain situation! And Misfit Style, I've been particularily harsh onto you and for that I am truely sorry, but could you please edit your last post as I took another look at the NHE and I realized Alexander Nevzorov was crazy and that you were right. When I read your post "The Difference Between Natural Horsemanship and Regular Horsemanship" I realized you were right- it's just that I needed a 'nh' person because I'm a bit of a newcomer to this reading horses thing and I needed some inforamtion. Sorry guys...
"People may tell me that they are great riders, fantastic horsemen, or knowledgeable horsepeople. I never believe them until I speak to their horses."  
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| Well I havent a clue what the on line parelli packages cost. have no desire to. BUt I can bet you that you/ your horse would have been better served If you had found a reputable real life trainer in your desired disipline. I have nothing against NH perse I do have a problem with the idea that learning how to handle ride et al a horse by video, book etc. You have no imidite feed back on a problem you and your horse maybe having. for the sake of this discussion lets say your horse is being a royal butt head doing his left lead. Following the trainer in a box directions are not helping any because dobbin just refuses to do anything that remotly resembles the left lead. You the rider gets frustrated dobbin the horse gets frustrated. You can not ask trainer in a box what is going on because the box can not answer you. But if you were infront of a real life trainer they have eyes and can sugest things to do. Also any 'trainer' who actually has a policy against helmets esp for beginners and more importantly minors should not recieve anyones respect or their money. And yes that is their stance on helmets. As I dont have the thread/post infront of me at this moment I shall paraphrase.. " We do not believe in the use of helmets because when someone puts on a helmet they become 'heros' and do silly things. We encoursge our student not to get on the horse until such tendicies are trained out of hte horse." NOw the horse being a prey animal will always be unpredectiable. Even the most bombproof horse will spook at something. To think for a moment that any training will 'train' that out of them need their heads examined and not teach another peson anything about horses beyond the dictionary defination of hte word... ( from webster unabridged 1988) HOrse : an animal with a long flowing mane and tail see mane see tail.. Mane: a grouping of hair found along the top side of an animals neck etc... As for learning the best way is not a trainer in a box nor on line. But a real life trainer. But if you wish to expand your knowlege first I would dump parelli in other words see if you can get a refund. Go to your library and read GM's books, see if you can locate old calvary manuals. Somewhere on line is xenophones book transulated from the greek it was originally written it,chances are you will not find that in the library for check out. It has been out of print for at least 100 yrs... But it was 'in print' for several hundred years..Xenophone lived what about 1000 yrs ago and is known as hte father of modern horsemanship. YOu would be suprised to see that many things that PP claims as his came straight from the english transulation of Xephophone book... I may have mispelled his name as greek is not my strong suit.. IF english disiplines are not your thing skip the GM books but find an equally well known western persons books. But look for hte calvary manuals etc.. Thsoe are just good horsemanship. nothing fancy no games etc. And noone not even PP can say with a straight face that those men in the calvary did not have a good strong relationship with their horses.. It is not so much we hte clinicians we dislike Parelli or at least most of us. I dislike the parelli's because they have taken something that many have worked hard to achieve repackaged it and said 'look what I have come up with, Look what I have reworked to inflate my bank account..." I have nothing against people earning a good living it is difficult at best in horses but the parelli's have taken something claimed ot make it their own idea etc and sold it to people who should not be working horses on their own ( ie green riders/ horse owers) basically stating that yes even you forrest gump can train a horse with oly my trainer in a box program.. They are not held liable for what they 'teach'. They are not held accountable for what they teach if someone gets hurt doing it. Tell me If as in hte case above dobbin being a butt head at hte left canter can you call the parellis and say ' hey I have been doing what you say to do but dobbin just will not left lead properly what can I do?" WOuld you get an answer? IF not then the program is a waste of $$$ and dangerious.. Oh yeah btw the answer is no you cant I have read where someone 'had the gall' to call once when they had a problem and the parelli ranch told them figure it out dont call back... Once upon a time the parelli's had their level requirements posted on their site. As a lark I went there to see what was involved( this was when I first heard his name and did not know anyhting about him or hte program had no opinion) by going with what was listed on THEIR site my cranky wenchy qh mare that probably should not have been a 1st horse for anyone let along a green rider.. would hae easily hit ther highest level in the entire program and then some. Figure she probably would have been at the ficitous level 25...because wat it take a pepperoni sever years to achieve we achieved in several months.. And that was while on the show circut with a diffrent show every week.. I read the crap on his site and knew after the first few words it was exactally that crap.. And for the price he is charging a human real world trainer would do anyone involved a lot better.. PP is a wonderful salesman he would make a used car salesman green with envy.. edited for typos
If ponies were human.. most would be in prison. Mrs. Smith COTH
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Savvy4Horses (10/19/2009)
Misfit Style, I've been particularily harsh onto you and for that I am truely sorry, but could you please edit your last post as I took another look at the NHE and I realized Alexander Nevzorov was crazy and that you were right. When I read your post "The Difference Between Natural Horsemanship and Regular Horsemanship" I realized you were right- it's just that I needed a 'nh' person because I'm a bit of a newcomer to this reading horses thing and I needed some inforamtion. Sorry guys...
Apology accepted. Unfortunately, I'm not going to edit my previous posts. Why? Because I meant everything that I said. Plus, you can't take back what has already been said/done, but you CAN move forward.
I'm glad that you're learning. We've all been beginners at one point or another. The important thing you remember is to soak up all the information that you can, and ask as many questions as you can.
NH big name trainers are really appealing to newbies because they have an 'ikea version' of horsemanship. They have 'step A, step B, step C' etc... They turn horsemanship into a series of steps in which no real thought or judgement is required. It can be great when it works, but when it DOESN'T work, it can go really REALLY wrong (frustrated at best, injured/dead at worst).
The biggest thing to learn right now is that the 'what' isn't important, it's the 'why'. There are basic principles of horsemanship that can be applied to every situation. For example, things like "make the right thing easy and the bad thing hard" has near universal application. Also, "using as little force as possible but as much as necessary" is another one of these principles.
My best advice is to get a trainer who can help you. Also, if you are going to be reading, read the classics. Xenohpon (can get online), George Morris (if you do hunter/jumper), any of the classical dressage books... if you want a list of 'must reads' I'd be happy to help you.
Let me know if you have any further questions...
Society does not need more children; but it does need more loved children. Quite literally, we cannot afford unloved children - but we pay heavily for them every day. There should not be the slightest communal concern when a woman elects to destroy the life of her thousandth-of-an-ounce embryo. But all society should rise up in alarm when it hears that a baby that is not wanted is about to be born. ~Garrett Hardin
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OK, I agree with a little of what everyone has said.
Shoes- I think are usually not necessary, sometimes mandatory. Yes, it's GREAT to leave the hoof as natural as possible with barefoot trims (yes, barefoot trims, not shod trims without shoes). In fact, my horse is barefoot. When I got him, he had horrible feet, couldn't hold a shoe for a week even with bell boots, and had paper-thin walls. Within a month of taking him barefoot his hoof wall doubled in thickness! His whole hoof improved over the next year, and I can only remember maybe 3 times (over almost 2 1/2 years) that his feet were sore.
However, like I said, shoes are sometimes necessary. See, horses don't have the feet of wild horses anymore, because they are kept in captivity. I know of one horse who was born with chronic founder, and he is very uncomfortable without shoes. many navicular, laminitic, and foundered horses need therapuetic shoes, since their feet are so far from "natural". In this case, I would put shoes on the horse.
I'm surprised that hoof boots haven't been brought up. Hoof boots are a wonderful way to keep a horse barefoot (and the hoof expanding and contracting as natural) in work such as steep, rocky terrain. All it does is protect the hoof and give a little traction, while letting the hoof function as normal.
I could talk alot more about shoes vs. barefoot (and I love to!) so if you have any questions let me know!
Blankets: are not evil. My horse is blanketed only in below freezing weather. It is true that blanketing early fall-late spring, every year, every day, will atrophy the muscles that fluff out hair in freezing temperatures (think about it- any muscle that you don't use for a long time will atrophy). But one thing that is too often overlooked is that a horse covered in mud CAN'T fluff out his coat. It's matted to his side. If the horse is covered in mud for most of the winter this has the same effect as blanketing, where the horse can't fluff his winter coat. In this case, I think blanketing is the better option, the blanket keeps heat in no matter how much mud is on it.
I hope I helped you understand some of these highly debatable topics.
Like a horse in open country, they did not stumble. ~Isaiah 63:13
But ask the animals, and they will teach you ~Job 12:7a
"You don't throw a whole life away, just 'cause it's beat up a little" ~ Tom Smith, Seabiscuit's trainer
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^ I've never heard about the muscle thing. I honestly don't believe that's the case that muscles control hair fluffing.
Think about it, muscles don't control human hair. Horse hair is naturally fluffy, it's just a matter of length. Blankets mat it down, but that has nothing to do with muscles.
Society does not need more children; but it does need more loved children. Quite literally, we cannot afford unloved children - but we pay heavily for them every day. There should not be the slightest communal concern when a woman elects to destroy the life of her thousandth-of-an-ounce embryo. But all society should rise up in alarm when it hears that a baby that is not wanted is about to be born. ~Garrett Hardin
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Actually, it does. A horse with a natural, thick coat can smooth it down in warmer temperatures and "fluff it out"when the horse is cold, which acts like down and insulates better. There was an article written on this, I will try to find it.
Like a horse in open country, they did not stumble. ~Isaiah 63:13
But ask the animals, and they will teach you ~Job 12:7a
"You don't throw a whole life away, just 'cause it's beat up a little" ~ Tom Smith, Seabiscuit's trainer
Please join the Thoroughbred Owners and Enthusiasts Club if you love Thoroughbreds! www.thoroughbredtalk.webs.com
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Savvy4Horses (10/19/2009)
Clinton Anderson competes in reining barefoot. And Big Brown won the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness Stakes barefoot (okay, with a shoe that is designed to flex with his every step.). Plus, clipping horses takes away their natural ability to fight off the coldness of winter so then when they are half warm and half cold it really is our fault. Clipping them to ride is extremely selfish. And I don't care what you think of PP because if it weren't for him thousands of horses would still be trained with traditional methods, no one would have a solid system in place for newcomers and dedicated horse personnelle to grow a relationship with their horses. Plus unless ou have video or photo proff of being able to do what he can I don't want to hear about it. Unless you can prove yourself your claims mean nothing to me!
Big Brown did not run barefoot, nor with a shoe that "flexed with his every step". Big Brown has NOTORIOUSLY BAD feet. In fact, when he was running for the Triple Crown, there were groups of horsemen who protested him running because he was MISSING large pieces of his feet.
His feet were so screwed up that his farriers had to use a special resin product to create artificial sections of hoof for him, including a heel resection, which they then supported with glued-on racing plates. You can see in this photo - all the light-colored part is fake, and there's more underneath on the sole of the hoof.
Please get your facts straight before you say something.
Also, you have no premise for your arguments. You say that clipping a horse is selfish. To some extent it is. But choosing to RIDE a horse is selfish! Being ridden isn't the horse's idea, it's ours, because we find it fun, or because we want to compete, or whatever the reason. But riding in a society where horses aren't our mode of daily transportation is a purely self-serving thing. I ride my horses in the winter. My young dressage horse is trace clipped because I want to continue to ride and train in the winter, and I don't want to risk giving him a chill when he's sweaty and it's cold and it takes 45 minutes to cool him out. Now, if I didn't want to be selfish, I could say screw it, and only ride him at a walk in winter so that he never got sweaty. I have other horses I ride where that is exactly what I do. But I really enjoy riding Shay, and I want to compete with him next year, so I clipped him. But I'll tell you what, anyone who implies that I don't love him or care about his happiness and wellbeing is gonna hear about it. That horse is one of the best behaved youngsters you'll ever meet, but he is religiously cared for. I'm with him every single day making sure that his every need is met. He is barefoot, but I'd put shoes on him if he needed them.
I'm so sick and tired of people using the "NH" thing to write books with half-truths and made-up horse psychology and physiology - and it's astounding how many people fall for it, because it makes them feel good. Good horsemanship is good horsemanship, regardless of the label. Bad horsemanship thinly disguised as good horsemanship is what is taking over in this country, and it's sad. There are too many people with too little equine education falling for the hype and believing the shtick.
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| Woodrows Mommy, I am glad you have an opinion. What you say about people "falling for the hype" is very true. But please read a whole topic before posting because I added something else and you probably didn't read it as you quoted me on something I regret. But all the instructors here are the spur-wearin, crop usin', kill em' and break em' type and I had no other way to learn to understand horses. Yes PP charges excessive amounts of money for his products, yes his wife is in it for the money, yes it's a cheap system that doesn't teach you much about equine physiology, but if you have no other way, does it help you at all? Of course! Plus, what do you guys think of clicker training? I'm doing it with my dog and he is catching on really quickly, but I know of a clicker trained horse that bites. What do you guys think (this is a discussion, not an argument, if someone says 'i love it' and everybody jumps on them I am contacting a mod. This isn't right, if we have different opinions we should learn to accept each other- and I know I haven't been doing that but I'm starting fresh today!)...
"People may tell me that they are great riders, fantastic horsemen, or knowledgeable horsepeople. I never believe them until I speak to their horses."
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^ Clicker training is a great method when it's used well. I personally don't use it but I've seen people that do and it works great for them.
And on a side note, crops and spurs are not evil. I use a crop, and I have worn spurs. They're incredibly useful when they're used right.
Society does not need more children; but it does need more loved children. Quite literally, we cannot afford unloved children - but we pay heavily for them every day. There should not be the slightest communal concern when a woman elects to destroy the life of her thousandth-of-an-ounce embryo. But all society should rise up in alarm when it hears that a baby that is not wanted is about to be born. ~Garrett Hardin
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